Well, here's my belly button on the subject:

While I agree with you in principle, the fact is that the s/w is "open source" and no where, that I know of anyway, is there a TOS that says or even suggests that a link back is necessary. (Agreed it's proper etiquette).

However, I remember it wasn't all that long ago that I was a N00B at b2evolution and didn't know diddly about PHP, CSS, XHTML, SKINS or who FG was. It might be very likely that I ERASED the link back, thinking that it was ugly and not knowing that I was making an egregious OpenSource s/w faux pas, just wanting to clean up my page.

So ... I don't take it quite as personally as you (and others) might when there's not a link. However, the more I help out on the boards ... the less tolerant I seem to be about it.

its clearly an etiquette thing...

that said, theres no obligation to help anyone here, linkback or no.

Personally, I always look, if there is a www to look at -- I also have the advantage of seeing a little more info via the internal profile (you would be surprised what one can locate with an email addy)

The wp forums are suffering, and I do mean suffering through endless duplicate threads, posts that are purely spam, and endless CSS and xhtml questions. I tend, these days, to be more worried about keeping that from happening here. I'll let yabba and ed take care of the linkback checking ;)

the bit about the linkback is mentioned on "the most recently updated blogs" page. it IS a requirement there.

About your P.S. ... I attempted to be as concise as possible when adding the different forum descriptions. One hurdle is language barriers. Admittedly, also I think that :

evoSkins & Template help
Need help editing the skins and/or blog template(s) ?

overlaps with :

Client side stuff
XHTML, CSS, browser, cookie and cache/refresh issues

and I dont sweat moving topics (i move more than you might even know :P)

Ayuh. The only place where a linkback is mandated is to get your blog listed in the recently updated blogs section on the main page. In here there is no requirement, though there is no requirement that someone answer a question either.

Accidental deletion? Possible, though when someone makes a damned fine skin with every this that and the other thing nicely thought out I have a hard time buying the "did I somehow accidentally change something important?" argument. The ones who really piss me off are the ones who turn around and argue the point as if that will somehow get them an answer.

Bottom line is everyone is free to include a linkback or not, and free to ask for help or not, and free to offer that help or not. Whatever criteria one uses at each step of the way is yer own business. For me no linkback means no help.

I kinda agree with stk. I don't think breaking veins in my forehead over a lack of etiquette is good for the heart. But maybe if I had to answer as many questions as ya'll, it would seem more pressing.

I try to be lenient with the boneheads. ;)

PS - A better search engine would make people more willing to search. I do a search on comments and list all - 100 results makes searching almost useless, unless I am using improper syntax to limit the searches.

the vast majority of posts that are called out as being answerable using a search, are mysteriously enough, able to be located using the exact keywords that are contained within the the question.

For example,

how do change the calendar date to start on sunday?

mysql error ****

a better search isnt going to make those any more accessable, especially to those that do not search in the first place.

Maybe part of the answer lies in teaching people how to search better, by giving a more middle of the road reply?

1) At one extreme, there seems to be: "Use search, you moron"

2) At the other: "Well, here's your answer - coupled either with (next time, try searching ... or ... no mention of search).

Neither one really helps. In (1) ppl don't get help and are no further along the search learning curve (tho, hopefully at least TRY using it). With (2), ppl aren't motivated to search (no need, question answered) and then aren't motivated to search next time. "Asking got me my answer, why waste my time with search?"

So ... what's a middle of the road answer?

How about ... "Try using these search terms"

Blah and blah and blah

... "you'll probably find your answer in the top 5 or so."

Dunno ... we're up to a nearly a quarter's worth of suggestions tho :D

This brings up a question for me.

Like everyone, my site has been a sitting duck for spam lately. I'm wondering if one of the ways that they found me was that I say "this site is proudly run on b2evolution". I know that its not too tough to find out what CMS/blog software is running, even if it isn't displayed on the site.

Thoughts?

<rant>Apart from this question, I completely agree that if you're dependant on this community to help you get your site up and running, then you ought to give b2e some cred. If you reach the point of being competent enough to maintain the site on your own, then its your choice.</rant>

I imagine there's a lot of b2e-specific code that a spammer could key in on, the linkback text being one. You could rename your image, change up the wording....But it's tough to know what is being picked up by the bad guys.

check your source:

<meta name="generator" content="b2evolution 0.9.1" /> <!-- Please leave this for stats -->

same thing is done in wordpress

I think it is a nice thing to include a link back. I do in my site.

However why would you release some software to the world if you are going to be annoyed every time you do not find it? Are you expecting to get the credit? Is that the reason why you do it? I assume the answer is no.
And I say the word annoyed because I have seen how many members here react to that.
And b4 anyone mentions it...yes I am developer and I do release stuff in the open source community.

2. If we asume that not linking back is rude, checking if the site that belongs to the person who was asking for help has the link back in order to decide whether to answer or not, it is as equally rude, and even more because it means you lack the ability to behave better under your own ethical code.

I do believe that the vast majority of software developers tend to be too cocky sometimes.

Greetings,

Clauz

You are aware that the vast majority of people who help in the forums are NOT part of the development team? In other words, most of us had and have nothing to do with releasing some software. All we do is give free help in a free forum about free software.

majorsky wrote:

Are you expecting to get the credit? Is that the reason why you do it? I assume the answer is no.

Hi, Clauz,

Actually, I think thats off-base, and not really honest. Anyone who says they release open-source software "out of the goodness of their heart" is full of shit (in my opinion). Of course, someone wants credit -- and why wouldnt they? And moreso, and vastly more important, why shouldnt they get that credit?

I never said ppl do not deserve the credit for it. So that is not really the topic.

My point was...if you do not receive it, why get upset? Is it soo bad? Honestly? And if it feels so bad and if you are only expecting the credit, why release stuff out in the open so freely and uncontrolled? In such conditions is almost inevitable to have lots of ppl NOT giving you the credit for it.

But hey, I am probably full of sh*t because I never got upset over ppl not crediting my work and I release stuff cos I want to help others, not for the credit, altough I do appreciate and like when ppl do it.

But take it from a dishonest person if you want.

Anyway, I intented to give the topic more of a philosophical argument regarding the fact that giving sth (in general terms) and expect sth back is just selfish in my opinion.

Greetings and thanks for your feedback.

Clauz

Interesting discussion...

Zeldman doesn't have a link back ( having just converted to WP ) but his post on the matter of what software and hosting he uses is pretty powerful
http://www.zeldman.com/2006/03/09/zeldmancom-reloaded/

When that post slips off the front page, unless you view source, there's no obvious link.

I think it's a no brainer to link back but I don't see a direct correlation with the tone and conduct of a related Help Forum.

This topic should become a global anouncement. <hint, nudge, wink>

Anywho, The thing is that including a linkback is optional, giving help on the forums is optional.

If you delibrately (there is no way you can acidently go; whoops was that linkback meant to be there, oh well) remove the linkback, then you are not helping the b2evolution project.
So why should we help you.

Think that sums it up quite well.

Sorry for revising this old thread, but came back to it for various reasons, and put in some extra thought, and heres my latest ramble on the topic.

Although you got to think, that anyone who would be a potential user of b2evolution would just check the meta-tags anyway to find out what system they are using. I mean a average end-user couldn't care less about it, and anyone who does care will find out linkback or not.

I dunno, i guess i'm neutral to it. In my own work i don't have any visible linkbacks, just a <!-- in there. But yeh, a credit or visible shoutout does go a long way.

dearest ¥åßßå

I had no intention to advertise my blog.
I am just a proud senior - happy to have this beautifull cms tool - and happy to show his work to his fellow bloggers.
I have been working hard in finding the best cms - and b2evolution is what I have chosen.
God bless u 2

ps: if you are

'me' who locks topics and removes links cos you're in an arsey mood

know that u have made me very :'(
please consider that I cannot delete or edit these posts anymore, to remove the links

I can and did edit the posts to remove the links that (a) were off topic and (b) did not give linkback credit. Sadly, I can't change your profile and remove your URL from that.

A linkback (a) was there to begin with and (b) had to be actively removed and (c) is in my opinion reason to give absolutely no mention here in these forums because the opposite of what goes around comes around is also true.

tanx a lot EdB
I can feel the love in your reply

the links that (a) were off topic

I understand that - sorry for this
Can you give me a link to formal etiquette rules? or are these rules informal?

(b) did not give linkback credit

what is a linkback?
what is a linkback credit?
did you go to my blog? and notice something against etiquette?
I would be happy to change it - I have tooo much respect for the developpers of b2evol

the opposite of what goes around comes around is also true

please be clear - my english isn't sooo good

ps : to humble myself completely
what balupton writes is 'chinese' to me (not cynically)

what is a linkback?
what is a linkback credit?

It is simply that you provide and active url link to b2evolution, the people who design and provide this open source software.

All you had on your site was a "small" image that was not linked back to http://b2evolution.net/

link back is on

I just wanted to bring up that half the time when I search, I read 20 threads and see something else I'd like to do. Then I get side tracked for a week trying to do that, and I forget what I was searching for in the first place.

afaic, a linkback "has" to be provided.. that's for sure..

but i dont think the default ones has to be kept.. even a only single link "b2evo" in the footer would work..

cause when someone wonders what makes that site/plugin/animation whatever; people already search for a linkback in credits, footer or the contact page to find out what it is

I have a related question. In my body footer file it says to remember to keep this section (the credits) on my page to be listed at b2evolution.net.

Why do I have to keep the credits in the bottom when I don't use the top ten hosting providers recommended by b2evolution, and that's the only thing in there along with the b2evolution link, which I also have in my sidebar?

majorsky wrote:

Anyway, I intented to give the topic more of a philosophical argument regarding the fact that giving sth (in general terms) and expect sth back is just selfish in my opinion.

Greetings and thanks for your feedback.

Clauz

Partially it's selfishness, yes.

However, I've seen sites being praised for "wonderful, great programming" or "amazing design" or "mastery with PHP coding"...

... and upon delving deeper, I found out the sites are based on FOSS with nary a mention of the original source.

That, IMO, is stealing. Stealing credit from someone else and hoarding all the praises for oneself.

Sites like these are unforgiven >:-<