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Peace, I'm out

Started by on Feb 08, 2019 – Contents updated: Feb 19, 2019

Feb 08, 2019 17:40    

Lack of documentation and scattered, outdated or incomplete documentation has gotten the best of me as well as clicking man page links in the back office and getting 404.

That and having a query answered with a query is .....

The number of bugs, typos and general oopsies I've found is greater than the number of straight forward answers I've received.

5-6 day reply time on an actual bug is a bit long don't you think?

Good luck and maybe we'll try again someday.

Feb 08, 2019 19:42

Dude!

First, I didn't choose this CMS and then immediately demand everyone to change it to what I wanted it to do. I realised that someone coded me some software to use and I should be grateful for it.

Also, B2Evolution doesn't have a team of crackjack developers, It's only a few people who have other things to do.

Also, when you first came on here complaining, I warned you that sometimes the "Latest, Greatest" PHP and SQL is not the way to go, but you had to have it.

Many times I have read your questions and went, "WTF? He needs to clarify this". Thus a query with a query. They have done it to me to when I don't make sense.

I'll give it to you on the documentation as it is a bit klunky, but they have changed a lot in a short time so it will take awhile for it to catch up.

I am not trying to demean you in anyway but your not going to be happy until you learn to code a site by yourself.

Feb 09, 2019 20:04

Many times I have read your questions and went, "WTF?

Dude, you called the dev a one eyed dyslexic monkey.

WTF?

I realize the devs have a life but this forum ain't that busy so I don't see how it takes 4-5 days to acknowledge an actual bug. This forum isn't that busy. 1-3 posts per day average probably. Sometimes none in a day.

The query with a query thing; I'm not just speaking of me. I've read a lot of posts where people asked a fairly simple question and the answer they got was a question. Things like, can you give me an exact use case? or Is this something you'd use immediately?

A simple; No we have no plans to do that. or Yeah, that sounds like a good idea, we'll do it but can't give you a time frame.

Those are straight forward answers.

My threads;
16 threads

4 actual bugs
2 b2evo website issues that were acknowledged as so
1 positive rave about b2evo
1 helpful tip for the community
2 issues that were just quirks unknown to me
1 issue that was my browser/OS combo
1 docs suggestion
2 feature requests (queried)
1 complaint about front end styling coming from the core css files
1 General query on how to do something (unanswered)

I've also been leaving comments in the docs where there's discrepancies or very outdated material. I've also tried to answer some questions for other users.

naah, I ain't feelin too bad about my presence here.

Like I said, best of luck to them and I might revisit b2evo someday. I'll head to the docs section first and see if any progress has been made there though.

Custom Post/Item Types with Custom Fields was the last thing I tried to find out how to do but even with 7-8 different related manual pages, there wasn't enough info. That's one of the most powerful features of CMS scripts that have that ability and is what sets it apart from a mere blog or simpler CMS.
https://b2evolution.net/man/using-custom-templates
If that was a full blown tutorial, it would be a huge thing. Start to finish, how to create a Custom Item Type with Custom Fields AND how to get it on the front end WITH formatting/layout.

You might note a comment/question left there by someone. Answered with a query of course, even though not quite in the form of a question. sly. The OP with the question didn't seem to appreciate the query thing either.

Feb 10, 2019 15:17

@poorboy2 Thank you for all the valuable feedback.

It is one of our primary goals for 2019 to shift from "adding new features as fast as we can" to "better documenting all the features that are already there". I hope you have seen some effort to react on the documentation (which comes in parallel with a full update swipe of the documentation which may not be obvious).

The other side of the coin is that we try to really evaluate each feature request. We need to understand why you need it. Sometimes there's another way to reach the same goal that already exists. I never realized that follow up questions on a feature request could be perceived as offensive. Were they really?

Thanks.

PS: if free support is not fast/good enough for your needs, we can also offer paid support (with same day answers). For the free support, we reply whenever we do have the time to do so (i-e, after paid clients have been served).

Feb 10, 2019 16:45

@fplanque
regarding @poorboy2
1) I'm not sure @poorboy2 was talking about you, maybe I asked too many question on one of @poorboy2's topics

2) I know what he means as sometimes I can think of nothing but an obvious problem that I have and am not aware of others failure to see the world through my 'logical' eyes, but questions are the greatest part, and I remember it once said that devotees thrive on criticism. It can be a bit of a burn being questioned on a desire or what maybe perceived as a need but it only a desire and to be sure I get it right I often ask questions, which I know can be frustrating to the hungry child.

I want ice-cream?
What, any ice-cream?
Well no?
Could you provide more detail
Do you like chocolate?
Are you vegan?
I'm not that hungry !!

Feb 10, 2019 21:04

@fplanque Well maybe some of us take it the wrong way. In a lot of cases when someone answers a question with a question, it's a case where they really don't want to answer the question so they deflect by returning a question. Either that or they just feel like playing mind games. For the former, politicians come to mind but that's an example, not a comparison. For the latter, I've met people like that. There's many people like that in this country. Either trying to pass the buck or avoid answering or avoid working or just playing games.

English speaking people from different parts of the world can have communication difficulties even though it's technically the same language. It's a different way of thinking perhaps and maybe a difference between us brash Americans and everyone else as the English people taught everyone else proper English while us 'yanks' kind of made up our own version.

For the feature request;
Q; What feature would you like to see added?
A; Feature A
Q; Is this something you would use immediately?

Where could it possibly have gone from there. I could only answer that with yes, no or why do you ask.
Yes - ok, I'll jump right on it. (that wasn't going to happen) or Maybe someday. (didn't require my timeframe wish)
No - well I guess you don't really need the feature then. or Maybe someday (again, no need for my timeframe wish)
Why do you ask? - A question responded to with a question responded to with another question? No, I wasn't going there.

Does that make sense? Do you understand where your question left me?

I don't expect free and fast support for my questions or issues. I just thought it strange in the case of a bug because I don't know what may or may not be a security issue. I would think most anything that throws an error might be able to be exploited but I'm not a developer and it probably depends on the case.

I understand that you're not even required to give support for a free product but you chose to create a support forum. You mention paid clients and I guess you have all you can handle and maybe you don't expect to get any clients from here. I can't see many people being anxious to hire someone who lets a bug report sit unanswered for days on a forum that gets a few posts a week.

But things are different here I suppose. Anyone can start a business here so there's a lot of competition. No such thing as being lax about service even; or especially; before the sale.

Likewise, we don't like authority and that may be why we don't like to be questioned of our actions, let alone our thoughts. You wouldn't believe the attitude some people have towards the police here. Law abiding(and gun toting) citizens that will tell a policeman to f-off in a heartbeat. So far this attitude has kept us from having to take to the streets in mass protest but that probably won't last forever.

@amoun
I want ice cream
No, you haven't had lunch yet.
or
What flavor?
Chocolate
Good choice. I think I'll have the same.

Maybe my version wouldn't teach the child banter but it's efficient which I would think of as logical. Spock wouldn't participate in banter &#59;) Although he did have to put up with it from Kirk and Bones.

Feb 10, 2019 22:12

@poorboy2

For the feature request;
Q; What feature would you like to see added?
A; Feature A
Q; Is this something you would use immediately?

I believe you are referring to this: https://forums.b2evolution.net/more-elaborate-forum-moderation-system#c112542

If you re-read it more closely you will see I never actually asked for a timeframe. Is it possible you're all worked up about something that actually never happened?

Also I am a bit disappointed you would think I'm playing mind games as I have answered all your questions on this forum very directly. Actually I have zero time for mind games... or guessing games for crying out loud. On the contrary you may have seen me complain about people who want me to guess where their problem is by failing to submit a screenshot.

Anyways, I have posted another reply on that topic (without a question this time, but it's only pushing the questions down the line for later): https://forums.b2evolution.net/more-elaborate-forum-moderation-system#c112700

I don't expect free and fast support for my questions or issues. I just thought it strange in the case of a bug because I don't know what may or may not be a security issue. I would think most anything that throws an error might be able to be exploited but I'm not a developer and it probably depends on the case.

The correlation between error message and security issue is close to 0. Most security issues (based on 15 years of history) did *not* involve any error message.

Also most security issues nowadays are found by white-hat hackers who will submit them directly to us, not on a public forum. We have always taken them very seriously and have always addressed them in the timeframe demanded by their severity.

Feb 11, 2019 16:02

You're right you did not ask about a time frame. The word was personally, not immediately. I really have no idea where 'immediately' came from. Perhaps some old post unrelated to me. I apologize for my mistake.

I did not specifically think you were playing mind games. That's just one scenario for people answering a question with a question. You're reason for doing so is probably quite innocuous but I have no way of knowing as I did not understand the reasoning for it.

Is this something you would personally use?

This script is not just for me obviously which is why the question didn't make sense to me. I honestly don't think in those terms of me, mine, my, when it comes to software or websites.

Now that I think of it, the answer that popped into my head but that I did not use, was; "Not immediately." That's probably where that word came from but I should have gone back and reread the thread before voicing my 'query' complaint. Again, my apologies.

The correlation between error message and security issue is close to 0. Most security issues (based on 15 years of history) did *not* involve any error message.

Also most security issues nowadays are found by white-hat hackers who will submit them directly to us, not on a public forum. We have always taken them very seriously and have always addressed them in the timeframe demanded by their severity.

I did not know that. Now I do.

Feb 11, 2019 22:23

@fplanque wrote earlier:

@poorboy2 I hope you have seen some effort to react on the documentation (which comes in parallel with a full update swipe of the documentation which may not be obvious).

I hadn't noticed until I just now saw Recent Updates at the top of the manual home page which is new I think. Appreciated.

Feb 12, 2019 00:24

@poorboy2

Again, my apologies.

No worries. I didn't really need an apology but thanks for the kind civility. Always nice to be nice :)

I hadn't noticed until I just now saw Recent Updates at the top of the manual home page which is new I think. Appreciated.

It's been there for a while actually. Maybe we should make it more prominent.

Feb 18, 2019 23:09

No, I just need to scan pages more fully.

I've not given up on b2evo and I see now that you're dedicated to improving things and responsive to people's concerns and requests. In a few months, when winter is over here, you'll hardly hear from me. My source of income is not web related but does require decent weather for now.

Regardless of my complaining, I still think b2evo is the best of the all-in-one CMS scripts and have recently recommended it to someone.

Feb 19, 2019 01:32

@poorboy2 Nice to know you are a little more content with the docs and support lol

Feb 19, 2019 15:51

Wasn't trying to sound all important and I actually should have said the web isn't my main source of income because it is a minor source. I've built sites with several scripts and I host them as a reseller reseller hosting. I've spent countless hours in the support forums of these scripts so I have a pretty good idea of what people generally want, whether they be developers or designers, neither of which I consider myself, or end users.


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